"Saddened" by Piper Article
I love John Piper. I love him as a brother in Christ, and I love his ministry and his effort at helping us understand the greatness and grace of our mighty, glorious, just, loving, merciful, constant, sovereign and holy God. But I lost a little bit of respect for him today. Read the article he wrote which was published in today's Christianity Today newsletter to see why. You can read the plethora of responses, including mine (the majority of which also express "sadness") below the article, which elaborate on the disappointment incited by the article. If Dr. Piper was so humble and Christ-like as to submit a written apology available to the readers of his original article, a measure of respect will be restored. He has, however, unfortunately revealed a piece of his theology which is nevertheless troublesome.
i'm curious, what was your specific 'sadness?'
ReplyDeleteDid you read the article? If so, I put "saddened" in quotes because Piper used the term to describe his feeling toward those who claim to hear from God in ways other than reading the Bible. I am personally saddened to hear him say this, because I respect him and appreciate so much of the thrust of his work, and this seems so out of character for him-- to belittle a brother in Christ and belittle Christ Himself, saying that (a) those who claim to have heard from God outside of the Bible are most often mistaken, and (b) God speaks solely through the Bible.
ReplyDeleteBTW, where'd you link here from?
There's a big difference between extra-biblical revelation and unbiblical revelation. But maybe we need a more accurate word... something that describes a personal revelation PARALLEL to Scripture. How about "Para-biblical revelation"? The technical definition of "parachurch" is an organization that works alongside the church. So "para-biblical revelation" can be a revelation that comes alongside the Bible! This is what I believe in, and I just put a face on it for the first time!
ReplyDeleteThere is no reason AT ALL why anyone who loves the Bible should be opposed to para-biblical revelation. How about an example? You can read Jesus saying that if anyone steals your cloak you should give them your tunic as well. As you meditate on that, you hear God convicting you to not only forget about the $1000 your friend cheated you out of last year, but to offer to help him with his current money problems.
How could anybody (John Piper included) be against this? What pastor or bible teacher would counsel you to forget what you heard God telling you to do; that you are free to ignore what you "heard" God saying, and apply the scripture you read however you want.
And I don't think you have to be in the middle of Bible-reading to experience para-biblical revelation. I also don't think you have to be able to cite chapter and verse. But what does it mean to have the Holy Spirit as our teacher and guide if he is not instructing us authoritatively in our walk. Does he simply make suggestions, or throw out ideas? Or does God actually speak and expect us to obey? I think it's the latter.
But he also expects us to know Scripture, and to use it as a tool to learn to recognize His voice. Scripture never gets in the way of God's personal revelation, and vice-versa. Why on earth would John Piper pit these two against each other? He should redirect his opposition to claims of God speaking unbiblical things to people.
But really, why should we be all that surprised at his position? I think it is characteristic of a huge number of Christians, with Baptists leading the way.
For shame, for shame, Coreman! Let's not take cheap shots at our siblings in Christ, the Baptists. I've been a Southern Baptist for seven years and not once have I heard someone belittle the discernment of God's "parabiblical" voice. Thank you for the term. I promise that I will end up using it in future discussions on this topic.
ReplyDeleteForgive me if I'm over-characterizing, or stereotyping Baptists. It's just that, anytime I hear someone claim that the Bible is the ONLY way God speaks to us today, it is almost always a Baptist.
ReplyDeleteActually, you could attribute just about any characteristic or belief--from the Fundamentalist Right all the way to the Liberal Left--to Baptists. There are at least a hundred different sects of Baptists, all falling on different points along the evangelical spectrum (some potentially not even classifying as evangelical, and others not even as Protestant). So to say that anything is typical of Baptists is both correct and grossly overgeneralized because of diversity. So did you hear it from the mouths of Southern Baptists, Cooperative Baptists, Baptist Bible Fellowshippers, General Conference Baptists, American Baptists, Northern Baptists, Free-will Baptists, Berean Baptists...?
ReplyDeletei'm not sure how i came across your blog. probably via ryan's blog when all the roger moran stuff went down..
ReplyDeletei also am keenly interested in what young church planters/thinkers are up to in mo. since I am a church-planter-in-training with The Journey here in st. louis.
i actually have read piper's article and the article that instigated piper's 'wrath.' i am in no way questioning your take on this...i'm just interested in dialogue...
to me, piper's issue seem to be that the anonymous writer didn't preface his article by saying that: 1) the primary way we hear from God is through His word or 2) that we ultimately can't hear from God divorced from His word
is that a fair issue? i think so...
i think piper is saying that extrabiblical revelation has a proclivity to be suspect. his concern reminded me of my skepticism of revelation in charismatic circles.
i don't think he was saying that you can only hear from God when reading the Bible.
i do think he was saying that: 1) we should be wary of revelation divorced from his Word and 2) we should be 'saddened' if we pursue extrabiblical revelation over biblical revelation
again, just some thoughts. by no means do i have this cornered. love the blog...
I've just lost my will to discuss this issue.
ReplyDeleteWell... almost. I think it's fair to say that, when comparing Pentecostals to Baptists at least, the Pentecostals would generally lean toward personal revelation and Baptists would generally lean against it.
Hey Brad,
ReplyDeleteI like your approach... ask first, listen, then weigh in. I could use a few lessons on that crucial discipline.
I feel like what you described is the main point of the article, which he got across very well--and with which I am in full agreement. However, several readers including myself feel that Dr. Piper was a bit too careless with his words, especially towards the "anonymous" Wheaton prof. He used the prof's story as his prime example of how not to approach Divine Revelation, whereas I found the prof's article very inspiring, and in fact more virtuous than Piper's, because it was joined with a tangible, loving, selfless deed. Faith without works is dead... so is preaching, writing, blogging, etc. Those of us saddened by Piper's article are saddened by his condescension toward the prof when in fact that prof was probably more in tune to God's voice (as evidenced by the works that flowed from his faith) than Piper.
I am very skeptical of "extra-biblical" revelation as well. Everything must be tested through the Scripture. The Scripture even tells us to test the Spirit. How do we do that? With the Scripture! However, Coreman gives a wonderful alternative to the false dichotomy between "extrabiblical" and "biblical" revelation...parabiblical. The interesting thing to me is that God seems to "speak up" where the Scripture is silent, most observably in the "details" of his will. For example, about 8 months ago, I heard God's voice "parabiblically". I was sitting in a worship service listening intently to our pastor as he preached on I Peter 3, and about 2/3s of the way through the sermon, his voice fades out and God's intrudes: "Matt, you're doing this in your own strength. It's time for you to go through a period of intensely focused preparation for the calling I have put on your life to be a pastor. You need to let go of The Core--it's in my hands--and go to seminary. Now is the time. Now go."
Nowhere in scripture could I have gleaned this verbatim. I could glean general principles about the qualifications for eldership, about having complete and total faith in God, and so forth; but it took God's "parabiblical" voice to let me know that seminary was His chosen mode of preparation for me and that now was the time to do it.
I'll go back to the main point of the article however: we must, absolutely must, approach God in a way in which we do not impose on His prerogative, demanding that He provide us more revelation than He already has. The key to this, I believe, is having enough faith to make specific decisions even when we don't get "extra" revelation. We have to be secure (and knowledgeable) enough in the Scriptures to make decision after decision which we know at least lines up with His word. Like Erwin McManus says, "Go unless He says no!" If we "go" and He doesn't want us to, He'll say "no". Like Abraham immediately leaving his home, packing up all his family and belongings, and "going" to only God knew where, God asked Him to take the first step, and then provided a "lamp unto his feet" as he walked in faith.
Thanks again for chiming in.
Coreman,
ReplyDeleteI think the issue is what we demand of God... Do we demand him to speak to us on our terms--whether directly via the Bible or more subjectively via "personal" revelation--or simply keep our ears tuned in to His station so that when He speaks, however He speaks, we hear Him. I think it's safe to say that staunch, fundamentalist Baptists (as well as a huge plethora of other denominations) ignore personal revelation while pentecostals/charismatics feel an extraordinary "need" for extraordinary revelation. I think that's extremely fair and objective to say.
thx for the dialogue...you all are heavy hitters.
ReplyDeletei'll be back...
btw, what is your name? i can't find it anywhere on your blog...
maybe that's on purpose...
Brad,
ReplyDeleteHow ironic... just the time I signed on to my computer, you posted a comment here. Pretty cool, I think.
We take ourselves too seriously, don't we? ;-)
Most of my posts end up falling into one of two categories: (a) life or death, (b) utterly meaningless to anyone but me.
OK, so that's a bit of an exaggeration...
Failure to mention my name is on purpose. If you email me, you can at least figure out my last name (but you never know... it might be a fake), and if I email you back, I'm generally cordial enough to sign my name. Hey, at least I don't post on people's blogs via the "anonymous" identity, right?
Random note: My dad lives in Martinez, CA. I know the Bay Area's big, but you anywhere near there?
Oh gosh, Brad, I just realized that I got you mixed up with someone else. Forgive me.
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant to say was that my sister-in-law goes to Journey, and I visited there several months ago when I was in St. Louie... not since you moved into the "cathedral". I moved to Chicago about 3 months ago, and won't be planting any more churches anytime soon. I've got at least 3 years of seminary ahead of me. After that, only God knows where I'll end up and what I'll end up doing. Hope it's church planting.
To tell you the truth, I am not surprised that Piper would write this article. I have struggled with how to view Piper's books. I have read several of his books. He makes a lot of great points. But when I read his books I just kinda want to cringe. I know people love his no nonsense approach to God. I want a no nonsense approach to God but I don't think that will make me cringe like I do when I read Piper. Like I said, I am certain there are many treasures in the books he writes. I have gotten a lot out of some of Piper's stuff. However, (besides making me cringe) I have several problems with some of what he writes. He seems real condemning and judgmental of the yuppie lifestyle. He also "seems" to put too much emphasis on the motivation to follow God because of what we get out of it. Maybe that’s okay. I know it’s biblical. However, the Bible talks of following God for other reason's as well: the love of others, honor, because God is worthy, because its right, ..etc. His stuff can also be hard to read. Personally, he ruins some things for me. In his book "Don't Waste Your Life" he talks of how C.S. Lewis brought many timeless truths to life for Piper. It might just be me but Piper then seems to take those timeless truths and make them seem old and crusty again. Maybe I am being a jerk. I would never say this to his face and definitely don't say this to the girl I know who used to attend his church. I stopped reading "Don't Waste Your Life" because of the cringing. However, I benefit greatly from the Bible study I attend where the discussion comes from this book. BTW: Several people in this Bible Study group, including the leader, have expressed how hard it is to read his stuff.
ReplyDeleteHey Caleb,
ReplyDeleteAppreciate hearing your thoughts on Piper. I can't say I'm surprised he makes many people cringe. It's kind of his point. But not for the sake of shock value. He actually believes that the Gospel is the only thing worth living for and that it affects every minute detail of a Christian's life. If you read very much of my stuff on here, you'll hear a lot of the same convictions. The yuppy lifestyle is anti-Christian, plain and simple. Can't argue with him there. The reason most people cringe at that is because it causes them to choose between serving God and serving Mammon, and they wishfully think they can do both. Not saying you think that way, but many do, and as a result, Western Christianity as a whole looks nothing like the true Church of the previous 1900 years. It actually is beginning to look more like 14th century Rome than we might like to admit. Scary, man. Really scary.
My advice is start reading some Bonhoeffer, Willard, Hauerwas, and other countercultural theologians who take a deeper look at the teachings of Jesus and how they apply to modern/postmodern life. Then Piper will seem tame to you. ;-) Better yet, read through the Gospels again and let them come alive for you in a fresh, simple, profound way. I never read Don't Waste Your Life, but I've listened to and read the transcript of the original message he gave at Passion which was the inspiration for the book, and my heart leaped out of my chest in agreement.
The main thing to keep in mind as you interact with books, articles, and sermons that make you cringe is that there was a definite 'bite' to Jesus' teachings. There's a reason he taught that it was nearly impossible for the rich to enter heaven. He knew that when it came down to them having to choose between living in luxury and following him (which would require them to meet the needs of others less fortunate and use 100% of their material wealth for his purposes) that 99 times out of 100 they'd choose the luxury over the Gospel.
The million dollar question has always been, How much is too much? And while I can't answer that definitively, I think I can get in the ballpark. An actual dollar amount would be impossible, because the value of the dollar is relative to cost of living verses compensation. A family making six digits in North Shore Chicago (where I live) would be considered middle class whereas the family making that kind of money in Springfield, MO would be filthy rich. Housing is three-to-four times as expensive up here as it is down there, so the dollar doesn't stretch near as far. Gas is pricier, insurance is higher, food costs more, taxes are about 10 times higher. You get the picture.
Where I draw the line is lifestyle. How much do you need? Does a family of four need a 4,000 sq. ft. house with a three car garage, along with the Porsche, Suburban, and Double-cab Tundra to park in that garage? Do they really need that $75k yacht or that $2k plasma screen? How about the $100 Armani jeans and $200 Ray Bans? Ask the starving children in India or the village inhabitants of Africa thousands of whom die from AIDS each day because they can't afford basic necessities like fresh water. Ask them what a person needs.
When every last one of our brothers and sisters on this planet have in their hands forks with food on them, glasses with fresh water in them, roofs over their heads, quality schools and good teachers to teach in them, and affordable, quality medical care, then we can start talking about spending money on our wants. As it is, we hoard for ourselves everything that glitters and comforts and titillates our senses while the other 90% of the world wastes away before our eyes. It's not the government's job to fix the problems. It's ours. The single mom of seven children (four have already died) with no job, a mud hut, and a progressing case of HIV is my neighbor, and she is your neighbor. Jesus said that whatever we have not done for the least of these--this woman included--we have failed to do for him.
To the people who ignore the needs of others while lavishing luxuries on themselves, Jesus says, "I never knew you." I fear that a large percentage of American church-goers are strangers to Jesus. I gravely fear it. And until they are forced to come face-to-face with the reality that their lack of total surrender of all they are and have to the purposes of Christ is evidence of their lack of submission to the Lordship of Christ (and thus their lack of salvation through him), they will continue to perish by the thousands into eternal torment.
From the depths of my heart, I yearn for them to avoid this incomparable tragedy. That is why people like John Piper and myself are so fervent about radical discipleship. Because we love people and we want them to experience life to the fullest, as Jesus promised to those (and only those) who would give up everything to follow him. To patronize people on their way to hell is one of the cruelest things one could do for a person. If people grow to hate me because the truth I speak from God's Word makes them cringe, I will lie on my death bed with no regrets. If, however, I amass scores of surface level 'friends' whom I pep-talked with positive thinking spiels, I will die a most miserable death, and rightly so.
Thanks so much for chiming in. I'm guessing my words have made you cringe similar to Piper's, but I will not have wasted my efforts if someday you come to love the call of Christ to lay down everything for the Pearl of Great Cost, the only thing worth living for.